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more design thingies

Narainsbrain (June 19th, 2002, 5:29 am)

cruise has been surprisingly receptive in the html suggestions i kept mailing him. or maybe they were just great suggestions ;)

however, there have been some disagreements that cruise thought we should take up in the fora and let everybody decide.

so here goes:

1. after the prose description, the actual text starts in a new div. it used to be separated by just an HR. i liked the HR better, since i can make it look good in IE, but cruise tells me it sucks in Opera.

2. the layout for the page titles... i still think mine was better. it put the name of what the page was about first, so if you have many TSFE windows open, you can tell at a glance what each one is. it went something like "Mira? : / members" or "more design thingies : / discussion". you can see cruise's version at the top of this page. which one d'you prefer?

on a side note, the main fora board's date column could stand being wider. we got huge space on the left.

and is the different colour for the prose text okay? or should it be grey like the rest of the text? just a doubt i kept having during my reckless editing of stylesheets.

(Edit by Ben: On another note, I'm not supposed to be able to modify other people's posts, am I?)

more design thingies

Ben (June 19th, 2002, 6:05 pm)

1. I like it better with a div, personally. It's cool and high-tech-ish. Of course, I haven't seen it with an hr.

2. I like your idea better. (It's better for search engines, too, if you guys are letting them index the site.)

My ideas

Hellkeepa (June 20th, 2002, 2:56 am)


Well, as I see it I think it's better with a new DIV block. However, we could try to raise it those 10 (?) pixels it's below the description DIV block. That I think would be a rather nice ultimatum. ;-)

As for the title, I don't quite know... Perhaps just skip the "View thread @" would suffice, personally I think it's a bit uneccesary to have it there.

I don't say that I disagree with your point though, Narainsbrain: Seeing the title of the page is very helpful indeed. ;-)

Happy fraggin'!


Narainsbrain (June 20th, 2002, 6:29 am)

ultimatum, noun: final terms; a final offer or demand; a last word; a final point; something fundamental: plural ultimata.

so how does moving a DIV up make a final demand? :p

if you want to attach it to the description DIV, i can do that with an HR. if you just want to decrease the margin, hmm, more class attribs required then. gaah, cruise must be getting sick of changing the html. =D


Semirrahge (June 20th, 2002, 8:09 am)

It's a good thing I don't have any idea about what any of you are talking about. I think I'd go mad if I did. Just fix it. If it breaks, I'll tell you.

Oh, yeah... And screw Opera. :)


cruise (June 20th, 2002, 12:28 pm)

Good, the Div break seems to be reasonably accepted :P

The title are completely up for I said to NB when I did them, I did the laziest way first...with the intention to fix it if people really wanted more...


Narainsbrain (June 21st, 2002, 6:16 am)

okay, keep the divs. you think they're fine as-is, or any tweaks required? like that margin thing. i was thinking we could put a "Complete Text" heading on top of it maybe.

the stories page do need the story name in the title. "view @" is hardly enough. :p ... and instead of "view thread", you could put the thread title first. just a little rearrangement required, nothing really hard to work out.

...ben, you are allowed to edit everyone's posts, because you're a forum admin. check out the news (click the header image) or this thread.

(nor hovercraft)

Ben (June 21st, 2002, 8:38 pm)

Whoops, forgot about that. Thanks.

Just a Suggestion

Angelas (June 25th, 2002, 6:20 pm)

Ok, this is just a oouple of suggestoins, as the subject implies..but...wouldn't it be neat to have some variation in the site layout. For example, a different design for submissions and a different one for the forums. It'd make things a tad less monotonous around here. (thank you Semirrahge for that word^_~). Anyhoo..another suggestion would be enabling UBB code to add images into posts. I for one am inclined to add the illustrations which go along with the stories. *flits away**


Semirrahge (June 26th, 2002, 4:03 am)

I (personally) like the idea of keeping to an image-less (or as near to that as possible) site. If we keep up with new CSS themes, I think we should be just fine, and we already have basic HTML controls.

Of course, with me currently using the ANSI theme, I can't see the HTML as it seems to strip the formatting. Which, is fine with me because the thing is so awesomely cool.

Narain is my hero. "Mommy, when I grow up can I be JUST LIKE Mr. Super-1337 Narain? He r0x0rZ my b0x0rZ!"

Oh, yes, and you are quite welcome. Words are one of my many hobbies... And I think Cruise likes words too - he's the one that came up with the infamous Oeuvre. You ever want to discuss words, just let me know. :)


Narainsbrain (June 26th, 2002, 5:13 am)

oh stop it, you're making me blush! =)

ANSI strips HTML? war of the acronyms, eh? =D ...but actually, i don't get you; what formatting is gone? agreed that italics look nasty in fixedsys, and bold is hard to distinguish. but there is some difference. and links glow yellow. so where's the problem? or do i have some advanced version of the fixedsys font?

and images? nooooo! gaah, they'll clash with my beautifully colour-coordinated themes! ;) just kidding. but we should keep this site quick to load.

hey cruise, html tip: we're keeping the prose div, right? so just take out the 'prose' class from all the paras in it, and give it to the div. then you have to change the ".prose {" in each stylesheet to ".prose p {". (everybody else ignore this, this is coder business :p)


Semirrahge (June 26th, 2002, 4:15 pm)

You're right... I had simply failed to notice Italics.

This ANSI scheme borders on genius, man - I'm serious. It hits a fine line between function and form with a classical simplicity (classical? in something that's only been around for 20 years?). It's my imagination, I think, but the ANSI-driven site loads faster. :)

Oh, and don't EVEN get me started on the logo.



Angelas (June 27th, 2002, 2:14 am)

oh well..I just keep the illustrations to meself or on the other literary sites. Monotonous, boring, bland, dry, simple, quick to load! hmm I was only thinkin like buddy charm type deals or one pic per submission. But if that'd not the aim of the site, I'll not press it any further. Damn my love for graphic full pages!!

how dare you!!

Narainsbrain (June 27th, 2002, 4:14 am)

"monotonous"?!? blasphemer! heathen! css-hater!

no offence =D

well, if you want it so much... one image a submission should be okay. cruise could put an option in the submission page to attach an image with the text file, so you don't have to insert tags into the prose.

or is it crucial to put an image in a specific part of the text?

...and yeah, semi, i accept your compliments with the utmost humility, but stop, please, you're making me wonder if it's not sarcasm. i mean, the theme, it's just fixedsys in a bunch of colours. big deal.

It's a writing site :P

cruise (June 27th, 2002, 10:45 am)

DeviantArt is for all your graphical needs.

This site is all about the text, baby. Yeah!

...or something...

It's a writing site :P

Angelas (June 27th, 2002, 2:42 pm)

I agree, I'll just stick to DA for posting pics up with stuff. I was just wondering if that was one thing you guys would add to the site later. I wasn't quite sure where you guys were going with it, but I'm getting an idea now^_^ Fast, text-based, reader based.

And I LOOOVE CSS! Our club website at WestGA is being redone in CSS, so me LOVES!

No qualms there, I'm just used to graphical based web page designs. It's the type I use when I design sites for people. But then again, I cater to the artists building gallery pages or visually reliant pages. I also understand the site is not for me alone. But I thought I'd make a suggestion anyways. Graphics do tend to draw the eye moreso than just text. It'd help draw people in, but if this is a more private association, text based will work just fine.

It's a writing site :P

Semirrahge (June 28th, 2002, 1:43 am)

Yeah. That's what I think, too.

And Narain, if that's the way you feel - fine. But, like Cruise said - it's all about the text. Besides, it's more than just fixedsys and colours, it also has groovy retro-type lines. It's a nostalgic thing, really. Heh. Me, feeling nostalgic for the old days, back 7+ years ago. Funny, innit, how the 'net changes your perception? I mean, time here has a different meaning.

Um. I'd better stop. :)

you and your nostalgia =)

Narainsbrain (June 28th, 2002, 6:02 am)

i just was trying to stop you 'cause you were embarrassing me =)

oh yeah, i remember those old days of DOS, when Test Drive 1 and Prince of Persia seemed amazingly graphically advanced... i used to spend my time animating circles and lines in QBasic =D

and hey, i'll send you your name in that ansi-logo style. you'll like it. =)

nostalgia isn't what it used to be...

cruise (June 28th, 2002, 10:31 am)

Prince of Persia ruled...I could complete that without dying once...such a cool game :D

nostalgia isn't what it used to be...

Eldritch (June 28th, 2002, 3:18 pm)

I played Prince of Persia on Nintendo...Died often :P

nostalgia isn't what it used to be...

Angelas (June 28th, 2002, 3:54 pm)

LMAO I was off playing Revenge of Shinobi on the Sega Genisis if I have my time eras right. That's back when my obssession with the ninja was first formed.

I noticed the new Member Profiles

Angelas (June 28th, 2002, 4:04 pm)

Nice job with that! I like to know a little more about the other people here. The profiles help me gain some insight^_^ I 'm curious though. I'm not sure if mine is showing up. I wrote all the info in there and clicked 'update' at the top. Is my info showing up for you guys?

I noticed the new Member Profiles

Eldritch (June 28th, 2002, 4:13 pm)

Yes , it's showing!

Glad you like :P

cruise (June 28th, 2002, 5:33 pm)

It's not finished presentation wise by a long way yet, but at least you can get the information in...

Glad you like :P

Angelas (June 28th, 2002, 10:11 pm)

Very kewl@_@

everyone likes, no?

Narainsbrain (June 29th, 2002, 3:34 am)

just what i always wanted... =) hooray!

everyone likes, no?

Semirrahge (June 29th, 2002, 4:06 am)

Ohh, yeah. I hope there is no significant limit to the size of the fields... I need lots of room - I only stopped my "bio" where I did because I ran out of time. :)

BUT!!! WHERE'S MY TIMESTAMP OFFSET!?!?! I'LL KILL YOU YOU FREAKING MORON! HOW DAR- Ok. Just kidding, but I would like to have it. :)

And Narain - you send me that logo. I can't wait to see it. :) BTW: Did you make one for EVERYONE, or just for me because you like me so much that you are trying to make me happy every chance you get? :) That's sooooo sweet. *evil grin*

first i have to make it

Narainsbrain (June 29th, 2002, 4:12 am)

i was going to make one for you cause i know you love ascii/ansi stuff - you left no room for doubt on that =p

but if everyone wants it, i can make those too.

it's on its way

Narainsbrain (June 29th, 2002, 5:51 am)

i tried pasting it here so you could copy and paste into notepad, but it didn't work. check your email.


Semirrahge (June 29th, 2002, 3:38 pm)

Got it... Very slick.

Heh, well, thanks. I may convert this to a jpeg and use it for my logo.

Bodacious Additions

Semirrahge (July 2nd, 2002, 4:33 am)

I respectfully ask that you consider the following ideas:

1) That the most excellent profiles be upgraded to show me what everyone else sees, man, not the bogus forms.

2) That you add a spot for rants, raves, comments, etc so we can definitely unload our thinkings for our fans, dudes!

And... And that's what I have to say! Be Exellent to each other, and Party On!

most righteous!

Narainsbrain (July 2nd, 2002, 6:15 am)

dude! just saw Bill and Ted again, did ya? =D

i was thinking 'bout seeing them profiles meself, too. and.. them rants and raves, y'mean like that journal they 'ave there at dA, roight? would be a nice addition, wunn'it?


cruise (July 2nd, 2002, 9:31 am)


/me plays air guitar I guess you want a "edit profile" button that takes you to the form you have at present, and otherwise you see what everyone else sees, yes?

And a journal...yeah, easy enough to do. You want to store the entres like DA, or just have the current entry, like the Bio, but longer?


Semirrahge (July 2nd, 2002, 11:45 pm)

Actually, it's the first time for me. :) But, it was truly a most excellent movie. Except for the opening song. It was so bad I had to turn down the volume. :) I hate 80's pop.

I seem to have started a trend for goofy posts. }=D

Anyhow, an option to store the journal entries might be good... In fact, I do believe it would be a most righteous addition. (sorry, that movie has warped me for life! I may actually buy the stupid thing...)

Mostly I want a place where I can stick random thoughts on movies, books, music, ideas, etc... Also a place to tell people important things like me injuring my hand while simultaneously suffering from heat stroke and passing out for the first time in my life last saturday.

/me does air guitar thingy

And, yeah, edit buttons ar3 l33t, m4 man! Ph33r th3 l33tn3z of T$F3!!!

(I've also been vegging out on Megatokyo... :))

I better go before I hurt the brain cells of someone besides me. :)


Narainsbrain (July 3rd, 2002, 4:51 am)

/me fears permanent neural damage from bodacious semirradiation

ouch, you passed out? must've been a breath of fresh air for the neighbourhood, i bet. :p just kidding, hope you're all right. but how'd you manage to incur both hand injury and heat stroke within the same Planck-time interval?

random thought thingy... sounds a lot like a journal to me, except we can call it something else so people can feel free to write all sorts of rambling nonsense in it. i know i'd love to. =D

btw, wH4t'$ |/|3g@+oKy0?


Semirrahge (July 3rd, 2002, 1:28 pm)

/grins insanely

Megatokyo is a truly l33t w3bc0mic done in Anime/Manga style, with focus on g33ks all around the world. The characters sp34k large amounts of l33t, and spread through it is jokes about anime fans, game fans, geeks, etc - as well as some of that l33t anime emotional stuff. Note that in the past few weeks I've only managed to get through 6 months of the old strips(about 70) out of something like 280 total. :) I've also enjoyed browsing the artists site and looking at all his l33t anime drawings. Why can't anime chicks exist in real life? Man. I think I'd be interested in girls if they were like these girls. :)

And random thought scratchpads, oh, yeah. For sure I dig that.

As for passing out: I had been working in the hot and humid Texas morning, doing various things on our house(trailer, actually). I started on tearing out a wall, and I was using my fists because it was cooler than using a hammer and wonderbar. :) Anyhow, I punched through a section of lower wall, and my palm found a screw. It jammed in a little over 1/4", right above my wrist. The shock of it tearing my nerve combined with the hour of hot work must have done it. I felt like I was going to throw up, so I waited a bit and then had my mom help me around the porch. As we rounded it, I told her "I'm going." and I just sat down. I was only out for a few minutes, but that whole experence has given me tons of story material. :)


cruise (July 3rd, 2002, 2:01 pm)

Megatokyo rules. I've been following it since it's inception....definately my favourite comic ever. I have several Megatokyo sweatshits, my g/f has one plus a t-shirt. I have the Megatokyo bear, and the first poster on the wall behind my computer chair.

Just to make Semi (and others) jealous, several people have noticed the remarkable similarities between my g/f and Yuki from Megatokyo. Others who don't know Megatokyo have said she reminds them of an anime chick...

Yup, I'm a lucky bastard :P

Dude, yes...

Semirrahge (July 4th, 2002, 1:56 am)

I hate you. :) Not really, it's honestly not that big a deal - but Anime girls are just so much... Cooler than real-life girls. Ok. I'd better not get started on why I don't like girls. :)

I'm gonna buy MT stuff, as soon as I get a job and can afford it. :) Oh, and I have a goal of getting synced with the issues before he hits 300 - I did something like 40 or so strips today, so...


Narainsbrain (July 4th, 2002, 5:33 am)

just check out the megat0kyo website... man, it's so cool! hilarious! the 1337-5p34k in the ninth strip is awesome!

the title of this page has become quite disorienting though... "more design thingies." hmm. maybe this is the start of an anime-style theme? or perhaps a nail-through-the-palm thing... ouch. um, didn't you, like, scream when it went through? or were you in shock? this sorta thing's never happened to me, so i'm very curious.

besides, let's see how far off-topic we can keep stretching this thread ;)

'girls' is pretty far off, so... you hate texas girls, eh? hey, come over to new delhi. our girls keep winning miss universe contests. ...probably explains my rotten luck with 'em. gaah, i hate girls too.

'tis true, then...

cruise (July 4th, 2002, 10:22 am)

I am just too damn lucky for my own good :P

Cool... :D

Mucho Far offen topic

Semirrahge (July 4th, 2002, 1:44 pm)

Yeah, yeah... MT is the best thing since, um... Yeah, since Trigun. :) It ranks with my fave animes (Trigun, Bebop, Evangelion - um, but considering I've seen few others... ;P) because of it's blending of the interests of geeks in general. If you thought 9 was good, just wait. So far my favorite strips are 61-63, but those are faves out of the rest of the faves. :)

As for my palm, no... I did not scream. I said something along the lines of "Oh Great". My was working in the next room and wanted to know if I'd broken my arm, which I've never done either. I told her, no, I just stabbed a screw into my hand. If you are wondering how I drove a screw into my palm, I didn't. I was tearing out a wall without tools (it's cooler to kick, punch, and tear with my bare -well, gloved - hands. And besides, it';s just paneling in a trailer. :P), and there was a screw in the opposite wall where none should have been.

As for being in shock... I don't know. I've cut myself pretty bad several times, some of those to the bone where I was bleeding so bad that I had to hold my hand under the cut to keep the blood from pouring onto the ground, and none of those times bothered me very much. In fact, a lot of my cuts I never even feel. Oh, and unless you should think I'm a klutz, I'm not. I rarely get hurt, especially bad like this. In fact, it's so rare that it's almost that I lead a charmed life. I'm always just barely avoiding getting my leg hacked off with a chainsaw, electrocution, impalement by earthmoving equipment... etc. And yes, those are all real experiences. :)

As for girls... It's not that there are no cute girls here, it's just that every girl I run across is more interested in being "girly" than she is in being smart. I am an extremely intellectual person (which of us here isn't, really?), and it annoys me to no end when girls go on about stupid things like - well, you know what I'm talking about. I'm much more interested in meeting a girl that is brilliant and multitalented and being "just friends" with her than I am in meeting a popular cheerleader and having some romantic, ditzy, and emotionally-driven attachment. Another reason I'm not especially interested in girls goes like this: Dating is really for finding a mate. I am not interested in the slightest in getting married. And, I refuse to date for "fun", because I've see the emotional scarring that "just for fun" relationships leave.

Oh, and you can't place the blame of OT on me... :) I did my best to split off the topics into new threads.

So. How's that for off-topic?

lots of Off-Topic :P

cruise (July 4th, 2002, 4:09 pm)

Just ordered the Evangelion Boxset on DVD... :D

I tend to manage to cut msyelf up pretty badly on regular occasions, but I've never broken anything, and I manage to avoid really nasty stuff. Nearly castrated myself with a lathe once (not as bad as it sounds...just always remember to take the chuck key out before operating power tools...)

As for you attitude toward girls, Semi, I heartily approve. The world would be a much saner place if others had the same sense :P I agree entirely with our reasons for dating (or not), so yes...that does mean that I intend to be a married man within a few years...scary thought, no?

offness plateauing...

Narainsbrain (July 6th, 2002, 4:55 am)

as for girls, yes, i agree too, in the sensible part of my brain. and no, i do tend to use it occasionally. =p that bit about the miss universe contests... heck, i didn't mean nothing by it. 'twas mostly a jest - maybe i joke around too much - or perhaps i should insert more emoticons in strategic places - or i should go soak my head. /me slaps self into seriousness. not with a haddock, i might add. ...oh crap, i did it again!

well, now that i think about it, it's true, when you get hurt badly when least expecting it, the pain doesn't hit you. i remember once i inadvertently got an almond-sized chunk of flesh gouged out of my knee, and i don't remember it hurting very much at all. (i know, almond-sized doesn't sound like much, but it was deep.) sure, i was thinking, 'oh crap, this is bad, what am i supposed to do with it now?' and the blood was dripping almost to my sock, but there wasn't any pain. at least, not until i tried to wash the wound. grrr.

it's weird, how a paper cut hurts like hell while real bolidy harm doesn't set off no alarm bells. the pain-handler daemon probably crashes under the flood of pings ;).something i'll want to keep in mind if i ever write a story involving physical damage.

so now, do we have any actual design thingies to discuss, or do we continue off-topicking?

offness plateauing...

Semirrahge (July 7th, 2002, 6:21 am)

Cruise, I hate you... I have not actually finished either Evangelion or Bebop... I have to watch them by downloading the episodes, and I got Trigun from a friend. Doggone I want those box sets so bad. :)

Narain... Yeah, that is funny. Once, after just sharpening one of my knives, I cut myself right along the side of my thumbnail, where the nail goes back under the skin. I did not know I was cut until I realized my knife was stuck to my hand... :) As for your injury, yeah - an almond-sized chunk is plenty big. :)

As for your ideas of ping-handling Daemons... Very cool. I love the imagery. Have you ever thought of writing a funny story?

Along those lines, last week I wore a wrist brace so I could lift heavy stuff with my damaged hand... I found that I could wedge my big knife (A Damascus steel C.U.D.A. made by Camillus) in the elastic and stuff so that I had a wrist-mounted knife. $v33t! Along with that, since it rained so much last week, I also wore my duster, and had a glove on my right hand. Overall, I presented quite a story-worthy character. :)

Get this: This guy has a lot of cybernetic parts. Some of him is totally replaced, like the right hand, and some is just augmented, like his left - which has a knife and linkup gear.

Suddenly I'm very tired and bored. So, Megatokyo is consuming my current life, as well as all things anime. I have a lust for Anime right now that's - gah. It's really bad. :)

I'm going to finish up here and go to bed.

Oh, yeah. Stay off-topic. Anyone have anything else to say about girls? :P

offness plateauing...

Eldritch (July 7th, 2002, 11:00 pm)

Girls... I like girls... I love girlls :D. Of course I'm young, broke and have never had a broken heart, so :P And into anime, Rurouni Kenshin is my fave :D. Oh yes! Violence and comedy do go well together.

somebody had to change this Subject

Narainsbrain (July 8th, 2002, 3:08 am)

actually, i have written a funny story. it's called 640 Kilobytes, and if anybody's interested it's in my Oeuvre.

as for the character, that does sound cool... 'cept it's not new, is it? just your standard cyberpunk cyborg or something. w0ot, alliteration! ;)

and y'know, i never liked anime/manga until i saw megatokyo. such unrealistic faces =p i'm very into realistic drawing. but now after all that megatokyo - 150 strips (they aren't really strips, they're squares though) in three days (four actually, but yesterday i didn't read any, so that doesn't count [besides, isn't bracket overload fun?]) - i find myself wanting to draw anime-style... what's happening to me?! nooooooo!!!


oh yeah, about girls. well, lucky you, eldritch. me, well, let's just say zero out of three ain't really jackpot. 'nuff said.

what subject?

cruise (July 8th, 2002, 9:38 am)

I've got the Lain boxset, and the complete sets of Trigun and Bebop :D

Bought the first DVD's of Gundam Wing and Nadesico too, so may well start collecting those at some point too :P

Would really like to collect Escaflowne too, I liked the first DVD...but the use of tarot cards so heavily likely means I won't, for religious reasons. Sucks :/


Semirrahge (July 9th, 2002, 2:16 am)

Dude, I so envy you. If I only had a job... Heh, if I had a job I doubt I'd have money even then - I'd be paying for l33t brödband - I'm looking at 7m ADSL or maybe even a T1, those are getting pretty cheap.

I've got a subscription to NetFlix, and currently I'm working on Bebop, after which I'm going to see Lain and then Nadesico. On my computer, I have Bebop Sessions 1-8, Trigun 1-26, Evangelion 1-4, Outlaw Star 08 (Cartoon Network Edit), Strange Dawn 01 (Fansub), Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust (Top-Kit, BTW... Tons better than the first), and various clips from other animes. I've seen: Evangelion 1-11(I think, I don't remember what the 0:3 DVD ends with); Ghost in the Shell(pretty cool, if you don't mind what I consider to be rather excessive nudity); Akira (all but the last 5 min, that is... My cousin copied it to a Normal-Play VHS... And the movie is 2:05 long... So... GRRR...); Almost all of Outlaw Star (Courtesy Cartoon Network, I'm only missing maybe three episodes. :)); Random segments of DBZ (Kinda dumb, but - hey, it's anime, right?); Emeraldas (or Queen Emeraldas, whatever it's called); A Bubblegum Crises episode or two; Parts of Dominion Tank Police and Patlabor: The Movie; Vampire Hunter D; Street Fighter: The Motion Picture; Fatal Fury: The Motion Picture (actually my first real viewing of decent Anime, besides Robotech, Speed Racer and Inspector Gadget); and the aforementioned cheaper ones.

Whew! Now that I have a list of what I've seen... It's pretty decent. :) I have Princess Mononoke rented, but I've yet to watch it...

And Narain, that's pretty intense... though I think I have you beat, as I did nearly a hundred just the other night. As for your Anime interest - you are not to far gone to save yourself. What you must to now is NEVER see any of the animations that we like. If you do not heed this warning you will be dragged into a spiral that you can never recover from. Oh, and stay away from La Blue Girl and Crying Freeman - those are just pornos. Nasty. :)

And yes, I know you've written a funny story - I think you should do it again. And again... :) For the character, yeah, I know it's as old as the genre, but - I've never actually dressed up in so genuine a cyberpunk manner... :) My first experince at cosplay! Speaking of which, I plan on going to A-Kon next year... And I want to cosplay as that MegaWinter Nights guy in MT strips 229, 239, 241, and 259. This all depends on the sewing abilities of my loving sisters *g* and me getting a job so I can buy the cloth and dye and stuffs and pay for my admission and hotel room. :)

Well. Enough about anime. What new topic shall we discuss in this the most off-topic forum ever? For those of you who do not keep track of my currently reading status (I know that a few of you do not follow my doings as closely as the rest of you), I am working on La Mort De Arthur. I have read several retellings of the Arthurian legend, but never the original - heh, and let me tell you, it's crazy. This antique english is a real hoot to listen to. "I will well" and "They came together with such valor and prowess that it were marvel to tell." crack me up, not to mention the absolutely TERRIBLE habits Mallory has. Oh! And the morals! Heh, these guys have Mass EVERY morning, dismount, kneel and pray whenever they see a cross, and yet Arthur, in spite of loving Guinevere above any other woman, goes to bed with every beautiful woman he desires. He is so anxious for amorous exploits that he goes to bed with his sister. Gah. This is a nutty world Mallory puts down. :)

As for girls, I've been privy to the requisite spells of puppy love (some of which nearly got me in trouble), but thankfully my logic centers grew up fast enough to save me from girls (a fate worse than death). Even now, I find that my body thinks for itself, causing interest in girls walking down the street, at gunshows, etc - but I've never gone and talked to one because my brain always kicks in in time to save me. :)

I guess I don't really hate girls (although my mom will tell you that I've never gotten along well with women, even from a very young age. Neighbor wives would complain to her that I would not listen to them, but I would listen to the husband, even if he said the same thing the same way she did), in fact, I like talking to girls. If I could find a girl who thinks instead of focusing on being hot or popular or picking up the next cute guy, I'd really want to have a friendly relationship. Now, I also know that it's practically impossible to just "be friends" with a member of the opposite sex that you are so close to - it's that stupid biological thing again. But there are girls out there who don't wear white eyeshadow, glitter, have neon or multicolored nails, or walk around with their fingers in their mouths (ARRGH! I could scream and swear that makes me so mad... Why do girls walk around sucking on the tips of their fingers?!?).

Ok. I am starting to foam at the mouth, better change topics.

Geeks. There we go. Anyone ever stop to consider the nature of the modern "geek" in comparison with the geek of yesteryear? The geeks in the days of Ma Bell and Phreaking are almost diametrically opposed to the modern geek. In fact, (in spite of what the movie "Hacker" seemed to present) girl geeks (cyberchick, I think the term is) were basically nonexistant back then. Now? There are considerable numbers of them - though I have the misfortune to not live near any. :) And, consider this: The olden-days geek was the school dropout, intellegent but illiterate and lazy as the nearest Sloth. Modern day geeks are quite different, with the exception to the lazy and intellegent parts, perhaps :). Look at me, I have tons of manual skills, from construction to welding to electrical... I've worked in a machine shop, in a warehouse, run plumbing, layed tile, sold and built guns... And those are just a fraction of the non-technical skills I have. I'm interested in music, science, art, psychology, etc - granted, those interests in some way involve computers, but that's not my point.

The majority of geeks today are multitalented and socially adept. Granted, there are few geek socialites, in the normal sense of the word, but we have our own social life over the web.

And I have suddenly realized how long this post is. I'll shut up now, ok? Please don't kill me. :)

Oh, yeah. The title? It's the Trigun episode that finally pushed me hard enough to make me cry.

holy non-relevant forum thread title, batman!

Narainsbrain (July 9th, 2002, 4:30 am)

there's a catchy phrase for you ;)

personally, i don't know any girls who really focus on being hot or popular... but then i don't live in your american society. oh yeah, i know one girl who wears multicoloured AND glitter nails, but there's just one or two girls like that around my school. besides, i'm friends with a lot of girls, but i've never had a girlfriend, more out of idiocy than choice. hmpf. i want your logic centers, semi. ;)

and hey, now i remember, i've seen parts of the second half of akira... man, the animation was aMAzing. all that l33tness in full-motion 24fps animation... incredible. now you know, the first time i see a cool animation i'm more impressed by the technical details of it too =D

speaking of way cool animation, anyone seen chicken run? no, i mean the movie, Chicken Run. sheesh. anyway, it was such a great movie! first time i saw it i couldn't get over the fact that those guys made those cool little clay chickens and kept moving them bit by bit twenty-four frames a second for the whole two-something hours of the movie... it made my head spin. i was in complete awe. next time i saw it, i finally paid attention to the story. ;)

stories. right. the arthur thing you're reading sounds way interesting, semi, even though i've never heard of it - but then i haven't heard of almost anything non-asimovian, so... man, i'd love to read something in antique english. indeed, milord, i have smote the fillubrious dragon with mine sword. hee hee... but what the heck does 'i will well' mean??

and now, the greatest topic ever to befall this misfortunate thread, GEEKS! ...sorry, i don't know any. well, ta ta.

oh all right all right, i'll talk about myself. i guess i was an inborn geek or something like that, having had no inspiration or knowledge of geekdom until i was already interested enough in technology anyway. as for non-technical skills, let's see... um... i can juggle! yay! =p no, it's true, i can. actually, my friends consider me the incorrigible absent-minded professor in the making. my greatest interest is in science. any kind of cool logical science - physics, math, chaos theory... i just looked up some primers on information theory merely because i wanted to know what it was. draw your own conclusions. i have absolutely no manual skills, apart from wielding a mechanical pencil, which i like to think i do quite well. multitalented? i don't know.

by the way, does anyone find my habitual avoidance of the shift key annoying? 'cause if you do, i'll try to start using it.

as for killing you, i won't, but watch out for eldritch. he's already shot me, there's no telling what he'll do next. ;)

THe Mindless Thread

cruise (July 9th, 2002, 11:43 am)

Ok, maybe not, but that brings back happy memories, so hey, indulge me :D

I complain about much the same things as Semi wrt girls...though fortunately, I know a few that aren't like that. In fact, one of my closest female friends is a descendant of Aldus Huxley (scientist friend of Darwin). There's actually a statue of him in the Natural History Museum in London...needless to say, she comes from quite the intellectual-type family :P

Geeks? Hmm, now that's a fun topic :P

I definately was a Geek in the classical sense...admittedly I never went in for the nerdy hobbies like trainspotting, but that's only because I was too busy programming. No social skills, dislike of sunlight, school outcast, etc. etc.

Been dragged kicking and screaming into "Life" by the few freinds I did acquire, and am now reasonably competent in dealing with people (in short doses). I'm still happiest sitting in front of a monitor though :D

Oh yeah...cosplaying... :D

Tend not to be many Anime con's in England, really...but if ever I "happened" to be near one while in America, I wouldn't mind going...with my current hairstyle and beard, I could do a pretty good impression of Shinji's dad from Evangelion (name escapes me currently...). If I was /incredibly/ lucky,I could get my g/f to go as Yuki from MT...but I can't see that happening anytime soon...

THe Mindless Thread

Eldritch (July 10th, 2002, 12:06 am)

Well Narain, I had told everyone not to comment while I let it ripen. You didn't listen. I in fact, I'm a nice Christian boy who wouldn't dare shoot anyone unless it was necessary as self-defense. Heh, oh well, currrently reading On Writing by Stephen King, yay! Oh well.

hey, what gives?

Narainsbrain (July 29th, 2002, 1:46 pm)

i go offline for three weeks and you guys let this thread die the moment i leave? how could you?

oh well, nothing against reviving a thread that had no real substance to it anyway =p

right, eldritch, i have no problems with you shooting me in the... where was it again? anyway, hey, no big deal. and i'm really sorry i bugged you so much so that you felt it necessary to shoot me in self-defence. cool, i didn't know i had it in me to bug a guy that far. especially a 'nice christian boy' like you. christian boys are the best breed of people, are they? =p [disclaimer: this whole paragraph means nothing whatsoever, is a product of the haha-it's-sarcasm mode of narain's brain-functions (it's not a bug, it's a feature), and is not to be taken at all seriously. narain's brain - or any other part of him, especially the as-yet unknown limb recuperating from a bullet wound - is not responsible for any anger or indignation caused to the reader upon disregarding this disclaimer.] [...maybe i should make that my signature.]

hey, what gives?

Eldritch (July 29th, 2002, 2:11 pm)

Heh,yes, we're a nice breed. A very good one indeed :P anyway...I just sghot you...I haven't decided where. Maybe I missed :P

hey, what gives?

Narainsbrain (July 31st, 2002, 1:36 pm)

missed?? i lay dead for a day or two thinking you shot me in the head, then you told me you merely shot me, and now you're saying you missed?

here's another twisted plot for you, semi ;)

god, i'm so prolific with unproductive ideas...


Eldritch (July 31st, 2002, 2:23 pm)

YOur own mind decided you were shot in the head. I didn't. I shot you...But I COULD'VE missed... Life is strange my friend.


Semirrahge (August 1st, 2002, 2:53 pm)

If anyone can figure out what the above statement is from, and who said it, said person will win ten points. :)

Anyhow, Narain, I like that... Super-psychological motivation, or something like that. :) But, the really strange thing is that that that's almost exactly what happens. (LOL) When a person is shot, the brain goes "AK! I've been shot!" and begins to shut down. It's not uncommon for people to get shot in the leg and die from shock, not from bleeding out.

You shoot a pig, or worse, a dog, they seem to be impossible to kill. My dad shot this one pig with a .357 Sig, which has tremendous amounts of energy (690 foot-pounds) - you shoot a guy with this and it'll knock him flat.

The pig ran around for about 15 minutes, and then ran down the hill and into some brush where we could not see him. We stayed and hunted some more with the rest of the guys, then later went looking for him. He was probably 300 yards from where he was shot. He had been shot just behind the neck, and the bullet went in and took the top of the heart off. There's no telling exactly how long he lived after being shot, but my point is this: You shoot a man with the same bullet and he's going to die instantly.

It's all mental, really. This was amazing to me when I first learned it, but it's true. If a human is on drugs, like PCP or Meth, where his mind is numbed to the world, he's practically impossible to stop. If I may be allowed to post yet another story: Two officers were in a gunfight with this big (I.e. 6-foot+) bad guy. He was on PCP, and had a big knife. The first officer (carrying a .357 Sig Semi-Auto, with I think a 9-round magazine.) shot the perp twice. It knocked him down, but he got up almost as quickly as he fell, so the officer shot him again, and he fell, and got back up again. The second officer had a 12-gauge shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot, which is really nasty stuff to get shot with. He is, at this point, getting a little anxious.

To make a long story short, the guy finally starts slowing down after getting hit 7-8 times. I can't remember the exact amount of shots fired, but it's not that important. Just know that the .357 Sig hollowpoints (Gold Dots, probably, those being some of the best stoppers.) really tear you up inside, even if they don't stay.

So, on the final shot, the bullet clips the spine as it exits the body, and the guy drops permanently.

I have a few other stories along the same lines, but maybe my point is gotten across.

Wait, what was my point? :)


Narainsbrain (August 2nd, 2002, 2:45 pm)

ten whole points? wow, i want those! i can't live without them! must... get... points!!! i can't believe i've never heard 'free-yown' before in my life! if i had, i could have won points... why, oh why this injustice??

:p it's easier at dA, where you can offer the winner a :cookie:.

that said (boy, that's a load off :p) that's pretty disturbing, how the guy just doesn't die because he doesn't know he can. looking at it that way reminds me of the hitchhiker's guide, the hitchhiker's guide, which states that the only trick to flying is to throw yourself at the ground, and miss.

but i digress. you know, from these stories, it seems possible to just not die at all until sustaining physical damage to the brain. heck, just because the PCP-raving dude got his spinal cord ripped on the last shot, doesn't mean he's dead. he was probably still alive somewhere in there, and could see and hear (and maybe even talk, if the nerves to the diaphragm still worked), but couldn't move for lack of motor nerves. he'd soon die from excessive bleeding, but until then, he'd be a real talking head. something like what Mira's going through.

One question

Hellkeepa (August 3rd, 2002, 8:07 am)


One question though: What has this with this site's design to do?

Thought so.. :-ž

Happy fraggin'!

One question

cruise (August 3rd, 2002, 8:48 pm)

Shush Hellkeepa :P

Someone who is decapitated can apparently remain concious for around 13 seconds...that's how long it takes for the brain to run out of necessary nutrients.

So basically, as long as there is enough of the necessary nutrients getting to the brain, there's no reason for it not to keep going.

Except psychosomatic reasons, as stated originally. Cool, isn't it? Lots of interesting sci-fi potential here :P

And is also part of my "scientific" explanation for vampirism...which involves viruses and symbiotic single-celled organisms and other wierd stuff like that...


Semirrahge (August 8th, 2002, 11:44 pm)

Crazy hunh? I've often wondered just how true the "mind-over-matter" issue is... If the placebo effect is strong enough to cause and cure infectious diseases, totally simulate a pregnancy (called an "air" pregnancy - don't know the scientific term for it), and prevent or cause death... What ELSE can this mass of pulpy flesh do?

It is fact that man has natural telepathic abilities, there are certain remote tribal peoples that can communicate for long distances between family members. Weird, eh?

And depending on the genetic "wiring" of the brain, you can solve mathmatical equations that take hours or minutes on a supercomputer, instantly - inside the mind, almost instinctively.

And, along with Cruise's line, some country, Japan, I think, had a really odd custom. When beheading someone, the executioner would grab the hair of the lopped head and hold it up in front of his face and grin madly. Freaky way to die, no?


cruise (August 9th, 2002, 1:10 pm)

I love this stuff :D

There is so much potential untapped within us. Here's a little example that most people seem not to have thought of:

When you get an electric shock, why do you fly backwards?

It ain't the electricity. Electricity can't make objects move by itself (unless they're largely magnetic).

It's our muscles. The electricity makes our muscles contract so violently as to send us soaring tens of feet.

From standing.

Think of the fun you could have at long-jump competitions if you could generate that sort of contraction at will...


The mathematics thing is pretty cool too. It makes sense, however, if you think about it, especially if you've ever seen the differential equantions for accelerating movement. They look pretty nasty, yeah?

How do you catch a ball without knowing where it will be? Differential equations tell you where it will be...


I could go on about this all day. But I won't. I'll leave that to Semi :D

Ok, thank you...

Semirrahge (August 9th, 2002, 4:42 pm)

I have some more to add to this...

Did you know that when on adrenaline, the laws of physics can and often do get broken? My dad, when I was real little, grabbed a six-foot long wooden crate full of trash from the END and moved it 5 feet or so to the side. It was hard for my mom AND him to put it in the truck, working together - but he grabbed it endwise and carried it. In other words, the box was perpendicular to him.

A mother once picked the back end of a station wagon up, from the side, and drug it forward a few feet. It had rolled onto her kid's head.

A guy who had just had heart surgery saw a 4-foot cement culvert section (4' dia, 4 feet long, 4 inch thick cement) roll over onto a kid. He ran over and picked it up, and moved it off the kid.

My dad saw a little guy on PCP fight off 6 burly police officers. This little skinny guy would literally THROW, one-armed, these officers off of him.

Wow, this is REALLY hacky. :) I have to go, so you are all spared. Oh, yeah - and why must _I_ be the only one who goes on all day? And it's not my fault I have a lot to say!

Ok, thank you...

cruise (August 9th, 2002, 6:15 pm)

Not the laws of physics beiong broken, at all. Simply our potential being realised. What makes martial artists (the /properly/ trained ones), so damn scary...

Our internal clocks get changed with adrenaline also, which causes the "time seemed to stop" syndrome of stressful situations. There's a mechanism that gives a regular "tick", like the crystal that regulates a CPU clock cycle.

Change the speed, and everything seems to be moving much slower, as our brain is literally running faster. Uses comparatively more energy to do so, which is why we don't run at that speed all the time.

Being able to access both that speed and strength at will....

....damn :D

Ok, thank you...

Wanderer (August 9th, 2002, 8:39 pm)

yeah, damn indeed.

And i so want to study kendo if i find a dojo.

Ok, thank you...

Ben (August 9th, 2002, 8:39 pm)

Change the speed, and everything seems to be moving much slower, as our brain is literally running faster.

I suspect our brain isn't running as much faster as the slowdown in subjective time would seem to indicate. (That's just a personal hunch, though.)


Narainsbrain (August 10th, 2002, 7:13 am)

all of this stuff is very interesting, all except semi's occasional mentions of telepathy and breaking physical laws. but it's excusable since he's a damn scientologist. :p i'll stop before i start a holy war.

well, i don't really have any stories of extraordinary feats to share with you guys (and i suspect i'd be shipping lignite to newcastle). and telepathy is something so plagued with shams and hoaxes that the very mention of it makes me recoil almost instinctively. call me a cynic, but i'm a scientific cynic. ;)

but as for the math stuff, now that's something i know about. :) this issue came up in ai research: actually, solving differential equations is invariably the worst way to achieve intelligence. that's how most of them scientists tried it initially, and weren't amused when a little neural-net-powered robot some upstart made could catch a ball far more accurately and easily than could their robot, connected to a terahertz-cray that could mince third-degree differential equations faster than you could say 'vector calculus'.

what's my point? this is: when you learn to predict something like a ball following projectile motion, you don't go looking for finite integrals of partial derivatives in your head. you just have the neurons connected up through learning in such a way that gives an /approximate/ prediction. the more complicated the motion is the more neurons you need to work on it, but in essence it's just a system that extrapolates from previous information. so, sorry cruise, your analogy doesn't work. :p

but yes, the slowing of subjective time is probably related to the adrenaline rush, but from my experience i'm leaning towards ben's thought that the brain isn't running that much faster: unexpected, powerful, adrenaline-rush-generating things do feel like they're going slow, but then it also feels like your own reactions are painfully slow... of course, that could just be from lack of practice, training or something like that. anyhow, the mental clock does get pumped up and starts running faster, so sensory inputs seem slower, but the actual processing bunches of neurons probably don't get /as fast/ as the clock does. it doesn't have to be all the same clock speed, that's just the way we've designed computers because it's too hard to design predictable systems the other way (processor manufacturers don't have millions of years to test and optimise their products!)


cruise (August 10th, 2002, 11:48 am)

I know the maths eqivalent isn't /exact/, but it gives the general idea.

It's actually harder for a computer to generate an approximation...we don't know how we learn and judge how objects move, so we have no idea how to teach it to a computer. But, however we do it, it's damn clever :P

Dragonflies process well over sixty "frames a second", rather than the twenty-five or so we humans generally get away with.

Most other insects have processing speeds much higher than us also (which is why it's so hard to swat a fly), so there's no reason our neurons couldn't run just takes more energy to do so.


Narainsbrain (August 11th, 2002, 4:58 am)

leave it to me to turn a thread about humans into a science discussion... :p

well, we do know how we do it, it just takes lots and lots of neurons... and some smart dudes /have/ designed a robot arm that can catch a thrown ball with a very fluid, organic motion. like i mentioned earlier, it runs on a neural net. (if you don't know what neural nets are, ask me.)

which reminds me of a cool true story about neural net ai: some military guys were trying to make a system that could recognise camouflaged enemy tanks in photographs. so they went out with a lot of tanks, moved them into cover, and shot a lot of photos. then they fed images, some with tanks, some without, into the neural net and trained it so it would output a high or a low bit according to whether the image had a tank in it. it got the hang of it pretty quickly, and soon it was giving the right answer to whatever image they gave it. naturally, they were pretty happy with it. with such a high success rate, they were confident that it was next to perfect.

then... the higher-ups weren't so easily convinced, so they gave the researchers some more pictures with and without tanks in them, just to make sure. 'oh yeah, it can do these, easy.' so they feed the pictures in. and, lo and behold, it gets them wrong! fifty-fifty success -- like it's blindly guessing. shocked, they try their own images again, and get perfect results. what's going on?

it turned out that all their photos with tanks in them had been shot on a sunny day, and all those without had been shot the next day, when it had happened to be cloudy. the ai hadn't learnt to recognise tanks, but to tell whether the day was sunny or not!

anticlimactic or not, it shows a striking parallel to human learning -- at least in children. giving anyone story ideas? ;)

I got a GREAT story idea yesterday

Ben (August 11th, 2002, 10:07 pm)

And promptly forgot it. I hate it when that happens. :( :)

Dragonflies process well over sixty "frames a second", rather than the twenty-five or so we humans generally get away with.

There's a difference between 1) processing raw visual data into a bitmap (of sorts), and 2) processing that bitmap into lines and edges and stuff, and 3) understanding that image on a conscious level. They all happen at different speeds in humans, as far as I know; it's hard to measure exactly how fast a mind is moving.


Semirrahge (August 12th, 2002, 1:10 am)

I hate this site. :) And I'm NOT a scientologist. :)

And Narain... I seem to be detecting a bit of a mental block here. I present a source of information, and you blow it off as a hoax, in spite of the fact that I presented it. I mean, is it very likely that I would be taken in by something like that?

And besides - how does it NOT break physical laws for a 180-lbs man to hold a 300+ lbs box longways? I don't follow - but then I'm not a scientist, at least, not in the traditional sense. It's hard for me to do science stuff because I don't think in traditional mathmatical logic.

Which is really kind of funny. :) I want to learn about all these things, but I can't do the math. Go figure.

Now... About neural nets... I'm fairly sure how they work, and I follow your logic about AI.

The point I wish to make is this: Humans do not work on "math". They work on an actual understanding of the physical world they live in. You can not know the laws of thermodynamics and still understand (and know) that when you shoot a rifle it will kick you in the shoulder.

I think it's safe to say that humans work on a form of basic algebra, where, depending on the situation, everything is weighed and balanced against an extrapolation developed from previous experience.

Suddenly my brain quits working. This place makes me feel really stupid. :)


cruise (August 12th, 2002, 11:07 am)

I've written neural nets just for a laugh when I got bored at work.

We still don't know how we catch a ball. We know the structure of our brain that enables us to, but we don't know how it uses it.

If we knew how we did it, we wouldn't need a neural net. We could build the correct circuitry directly.

There exists hardware that can rewire itself based on feedback, like a neural net, but also refines itself with the use of genetic algorithms. In a test, the researchers gave it the job of identifying sound samples, and set it up initially with the best algorithm we know of.

After a while, it was running in a fraction of the time, and more accurately. No one could work out how the hell it was doing it. Parts of the circuitry weren't even connected anymore, but the algorithm stopped working if they were taken away.

We know very little about why our brain and mind works, whatever Ray Kurzweil and associates claim. We know how, in that we udnerstand the structure. But how that structure produces the results we see requires much explaining. What that structure is fully capable of is still an unknown.

sorry, semi...

Narainsbrain (August 12th, 2002, 4:13 pm)

no hard feelings, i hope? [wheedles cautiously]

well... i read in another post that you were interested in scientology. and then the stuff i mentioned earlier... i should admit i'm a hardcore pure-science enthusiast, and any mention of supernatural or pseudo-scientific ideas raises my hackles like, probably, saying 'microsoft rules!' would richard stallman's. (the previous sentence is gramatically correct to the best of my knowledge. whether it's understandable is another matter.)

maybe it /is/ a mental block. but it's one i hold dear, and we all have one thing like that. leave me mine; i won't express it in so many words from now on.

about cruise's example, wow, that sounds really interesting. sure gives us a reality check of what our 'understanding' of things really is. i've got a lot to say, but i gotta go now.


Semirrahge (August 13th, 2002, 3:52 am)

It's actually pretty hard to offend me... And I should have known, anyhow, considering your views of organised religion. But of course I believe in things like that. How could I not, being part of such a mental work of fiction?

Ok. I think that was a bit harsh. Anyhow, yes - we all have our mental blocks. I know I have some, but they escape me at the moment. And perhaps "mental block" is the wrong term. Maybe it should be "personal bias" or "prejudice".

I would like to talk about the neural net stuff, and more about Narain's psychoses, but... I'm beat. :)


cruise (August 13th, 2002, 1:57 pm)

"Keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out".

I try not to have any predujices...I do my hardest to not prejudge anybody or anything.

It's impossible, obviously, but it's the effort that counts :P

If you honestly consider the evidence for all the fringe stuff, like ufo's, telepathy, et al, there is a core that cannot just be dismissed. Sure, most of it can be put down to other things, but by no means all.

Your /explanation/ for those events is entirely down to you...but dismissing them just because you don't understand them shouldn't be an option.


Semirrahge (August 13th, 2002, 3:00 pm)

That's what I was trying to say! Thank you, d00d. Most righteous.

I have a lot of disdain for the fringe lunatics, but I must agree that if their stuff does not have a grain of truth to it then they are REALLY persuasive. :) If that's so then they've chosen the wrong profession.

And, too. Even if you understand, there should be a due period of review before you actually disagree.

Something's wrong... I can't seem to make this post stretch out any longer. :)


Ben (August 13th, 2002, 7:16 pm)

If you honestly consider the evidence for all the fringe stuff, like ufo's, telepathy, et al, there is a core that cannot just be dismissed.

Erm...I beg to differ. :p I have yet to see any kind of persuasive evidence, and if you point me to some I will happily deconstruct it. :)


Narainsbrain (August 14th, 2002, 2:46 am)

"How could I not, being part of such a mental work of fiction?" maybe i'm dumb, but i don't get what that sentence is all about.

anyway, i'm with ben here, i haven't seen anything persuasive about any fringe stuff... they seem to rely more on circumstantial stuff that could easily have been set up, on we're-the-victims arguments that "mainstream science doesn't like us", and mostly on brute-force persuasion rather than any concrete evidence. and /that's/ my reason for dismissing them.


Semirrahge (August 21st, 2002, 2:23 pm)

Define "concrete". What one person considers to be concrete and irrefutable(SIC) evidence, another person considers it to be circumstantial and based on hearsay.

The greatest proof of my point here is the eons-old creation vs evolution argument. The "fundamentalist" creationists have what is to them, total proof of their point. The evolutionists, on the other hand, have their own total proof.

This is perhaps more of a mental bias than an acceptance of proof, though. The real trick is to understand that it's practically impossible to "learn" anything outside of your personal worldview bias. This is why I cannot discuss a lot of things with a lot of non-christians, because our worldviews do not allow us to "sync" mentally. There's just too many mental plumbing differences between us, and the logic flows differently.

And Narain, that was just meanness on my part... I was implying that since religion is totally mental and not real at all - a giant placebo, if you will - that I could not help but come up with strange ideas. If I already believe in such an obviously ficticious thing as a God, then it's not too much of a stretch to get me to believe in all manner of other hoaxes.

And I think I'm still being mean. I'm sorry... I'll ask your forgiveness and shut up.

On plumbing differences

Ben (August 21st, 2002, 8:24 pm)

I like to think I have a vague idea of what the christian mindset is like -- I read the Chronicles of Narnia as a kid (they should be required reading for every atheist/agnostic) but I always cordoned off the logic of those books into the "suspend your disbelief for the sake of the fiction" section of my mind. Even so, I enjoy trying to understand what christians are thinking when they make their arguments; the concept of faith baffled me until quite recently, for example, and now that I understand it I understand why nobody was convinced by the arguments that seemed airtight to me (though I still think they're airtight:).

In any case, it's easy to get carried away with emotion when talking about things like this -- after all, they're about how the universe itself works -- so though the apology wasn't directed at me, I, for one, won't hold any sort of grudge.:)

This needs to be another thread....

cruise (August 21st, 2002, 10:20 pm)

Wow...for a group about sci-fi writing, we're doing pretty well on the whole "faith" front. :P

Personally, I believe in God /because/ of science, and because of what I've learnt and seen.

It makes sense, and fits the facts. If anybody can give me good evidence against the existance of a God, I'd be mighty impressed, but I /would/ change my view.

I think what I think because I think it is right. No emotion, no "mindset", just simple logic.

This needs to be another thread....

Eldritch (August 21st, 2002, 11:32 pm)

Oh, btw... I believe Descartes work on the existence of God is actually very persuasive, anyoe might want to look into that.

*pauses and reconsiders*

Narainsbrain (August 23rd, 2002, 4:26 pm)

all those for taking this whole discussion to another thread, say aye!

as for religion, well, i never believed in it much (i.e. at all), but considering what ben's just said, i feel it wise to hold my words until ben tells me how he came to understand the concept of 'faith'. it seems to me i'm in much the same place as he was, before he was apparently enlightened. ;) or anyone else, for that matter; what is the whole idea with faith anyway? anything more persuasive than the blind watchmaker argument?

descartes, now, he was a hardcore philosopher, but there's something disreputable about a man who considered plants and animals automata (thus giving vivisection carte blanche), at the same time mainaining that "i think, therefore i am." oh well, back in the - which century was it again? - they didn't know better, so it's excusable ;) ...i haven't heard his existence-of-god argument, though, so i'd like to hear it. did he prove god does exist, or that god cannot?

and i reiterate: all those for taking this whole discussion to another thread, say aye!


Ben (August 23rd, 2002, 7:47 pm)

But first I should clarify that though I think I understand faith, I still don't agree with its validity. It's a bit of a long winded argument, though, so I'll wait for the new topic to be posted. :)


Eldritch (August 23rd, 2002, 9:41 pm)

Sorry toc ontinue, but Descartes was Catholic, and he held forth in the belief of God. And his work dates back from the Renaissance.

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